Centuries-old mistakes in NC reconstruction

[cjbaiget]

Dear Friends,

In Fomenko and Nosovsky's book "Western Myth", chapter 1 - "Era before the 11th century", the following statements are made:

A. "There is no information available about events prior to the 11th century AD in written sources"
B. "apparently [because] writing had not yet developed at that time"
C. "only some primitive tools have possibly survived to this day"
D. "They were not yet capable of building any significant structures, let alone buildings"
E. "Powerful early medieval Arab caliphates [...] 'Ancient' Assyria, Syria, and Persia [...] We are told that all of this existed in an era prior to the 10th century AD. This is untrue"
F. "all known to us today 'ancient' and medieval events actually occurred no earlier than the 11th century AD*"
G. "epoch prior to the 11th century is covered in deep darkness due to the almost complete absence of documents from that time"

In a previous post I detailed how Ptolemy, that is Batlamyus is really a -720 years (from a 10º precession forgery) reflection of Persian astronomer Battani, from the real 9th Century (the astronomical dating of his catalog). Just his work contradicts statements A-G for at least two centuries.

Now I want to share additional data, and a ask three honest questions.

From Ibn-Yunus (allegedly 950-1009) book "al-Zij al-Kabir al-Hakimi" (The Great Hakimi Tables), translated for the first time to french in 1804 [https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5626201z], a list of several solar eclipses and conjunctions from Aboul Hassan Aly ben Amajour (alleged 9th century) can be compared with modern astronomical theory.

Not only solar eclipses match all computations for time, phase, duration. It also happens that even a occultation of Regulus by Venus is detailed up to the precise hour (page 158). When it happened, both objects were less than 2' apart. This is less than 1/5 of the distance between Alcor and Mizar in Ursa Major, if you want to check by your own eyes what I'm talking about.

So the questions are:

1- Do we NC researchers have to understand that these astronomical phenomenons could (and were) forged by reformers with 1' positional accuracy and perfect timing into the Hakimi Tables in the 16-18th Centuries, that is, for a thousand years timespan with such accurate results?
2- If so, why did they took such risk for a foreign chronology?
3- Why they didn't use those techniques in Ptolemy's forged Almagest where no solar eclipses are mentioned and occultations are made by the Moon?

It seems that enough strong astronomical evidence (al-Battani (880), al-Tusi (1010), Ulugh Beg (1180) catalogs and Hassan & Ibn-Yunus solar eclipses and planet-star occultations and conjunctions), whose forgery is not easy or even possible in the 16th-18th centuries, supports the conclusion of all of the following at least three centuries prior of what NC proposes:

1. structured and developed societies, whose excedents allowed for scientific endeavours
2. complex tools, structures, buildings and observatories
3. mature counting, writing and recording systems
4. centralized documentary repositories

Please share your insights on the possibilities of this kind of forgery, or the implications of its impossibility.

Thanks,
CJBaiget

[Воля]

РАШИД-АД-ДИН СБОРНИК ЛЕТОПИСЕЙ
ДЖАМИ АТ-ТАВАРИХ ЛЕТОПИСЬ
ПЕРЕВОД С ПЕРСИДСКОГО л. а. Хетагурова РЕДАКЦИЯ И ПРИМЕЧАНИЯ ПРОФ. А.А. СЕМЕНОВА ИЗДАТЕЛЬСТВО АКАДЕМИИ НАУК СССР МОСКВА • 1952 • ЛЕНИНГРАД

стр 49 ком. 1 к вопросу о продвинутых знаниях мусульманских: арабских и персидских учёных в 13-14 веках:
1 По мусульманским средневековым воззрениям, земля держится на рогах исполинской коровы, стоящей на спине гигантской рыбы; когда муха или другое насекомое заберется в ноздри коровы и та начнет трясти головой, происходит землетрясение.


RASHID AL-DIN COLLECTION OF CHRONICLES
JAMI AT-TAVARIH CHRONICLE
TRANSLATED FROM THE PERSIAN BY L. A. Khetagurov, EDITED AND NOTES BY PROF. A.A. SEMENOV, PUBLISHING HOUSE OF THE USSR ACADEMY OF SCIENCES MOSCOW • 1952 • LENINGRAD

page 49 of the book. 1 on the issue of advanced knowledge of Muslim: Arab and Persian scholars in the 13th and 14th centuries:

1 According to Muslim medieval beliefs, the earth is supported by the horns of a gigantic cow standing on the back of a giant fish; when a fly or other insect gets into the cow's nostrils and she starts shaking her head, an earthquake occurs.

[cjbaiget]

Exactly meaning what?

I humbly asked: Please share your insights on the possibilities of this kind of forgery, or the implications of its impossibility.

The citations you have provided have no chronological implication whatsoever. Please refrain to post unverifiable opinions and explain how the description of solar eclipses and star occultations by planets that certainly occurred in the 9th century were forged into the Hakimi tables in the 17-18th century, or just admit they were witnessed, measured and recorded, even with fractional numbers for further reference.

[Воля]

Mais c'est simple!

Rachid-ad-Din est date de la fin du 13 - le debut du XIV siecle et il decrivait les connaissances generales des savants de son temps. Comment ses desriptions de fables pouvaient conformer aux connaissances pretendues astronomiques et mathematiques du siecle 9-10?

Je me demande si les savants arabes et perses savaient calculer une heure? Et s'ils calculaient les heures par soleil, donc comment avaient-ils calcule une heure (pendant la nuit) avant le soleil?

Les Zodiacs en Perse etaient les autres qu'en Europe, ce qui Anquetil-Dupeirron avait ecrit. Comme minimum il n'y avait pas de Venus!


Анкетиль-Дюперрон, Абрахам Гиацинт

Космогония парсов: о 12 созвездиях

Zend-Avesta, ouvrage de Zoroastre: contenant les Idées Théologiques ...

т.2. стр 349.
vol. 2 page 349

Агнец-Ягнёнок
Телец-Бык
Близнецы
Рак
Лев
l'Epi - не знаю точно: колос, гвоздь, чолка, пучок волос, вихор(?).
Весы
Скорпион
Арка-Лук-Дуга
Козерог
Ведро
Рыбы

что касается датировки текста-рукописи, то видел начало 14 века, 13 века, у АД видел начало 15 века.

[Воля]

Zend-Avesta, ouvrage de Zoroastre : contenant les idées théologiques, physiques & morales de ce législateur, les cérémonies du culte religieux qu'il a établi, & plusieurs traits importans relatifs à l'ancienne histoire des Perses : traduit en françois sur l'original zend, avec des remarques, & accompagné de plusieurs traités propres à éclaircir les matieres qui en sont l'objet
by Anquetil-Duperron, M. (Abraham-Hyacinthe), 1731-1805; Tilliard, Nicolas-Martin, 1723?-1773; Veuve Simon & fils
Publication date 1781
Volume 2

page 348
Les Étoiles fixes que l'on pouvoir appercevoir , furent partagées en
page 349
douze (Conftellations, comme en autant de mères [1] , dont les noms font, l'Agneau , le Taureau , les Gémeaux , le Cancer , le Lion , l'Épi , la Balance , le Scorpion , l'Arc, le Capricorne , le Seau & les Poiflons. Ces (Conftellations ), dès leur origine, furent comptées (divifées) en vingt-huit Khordéhs mâles , dont les noms font [z] Péfch , Parvîz , Peroûez , Péhé , Avéfcr , Béfchen , Rckhad , Tarehé , Avré , Nehn , Meïan , Avdém , Mâfchâhé,* Sapner,Hofro, Srôb,Nor Guél, Grefcché, Va- °u*SaPourreand , Gâo , Goî , Moro , Bondé , Kehtfcr , Veht , Méiân , Keht.

[ i ] Ces mots , dans le texte , font écrits en caractères Zends. Les Chinois ont comme les Parfes , vingt-huit Conftellations. Obfervat. Math. Aftronom. &c. faites aux Indes & à la Chine &c. T. III. p. 63. Les Indiens n'en comptent que vingt-fept. Id. T.I. p. 7- & 143-

https://archive.org/details/ouvragedezo ... 8/mode/2up

[Воля]

Un autre exemple est Masudi qui nomme les climats avec le centre dans son pays!

Les prairies d'or
by Masd Barbier de Meynard, C. (Charles), 1826-1908; Pavet de Courteille, Abel, 1821-1889

Publication date 1861

https://archive.org/details/lesprairies ... 8/mode/2up

La portion habitée s'étend depuis un groupe de six îles nommées les îles Eternelles (Fortunées), et siUiées dans l'océan Occidental, jusqu'à l'extrémité de la Chine. Cette étendue correspondant à douze heures (de la révolution journalière du soleil), ils ont reconnu que le

https://archive.org/details/lesprairies ... 0/mode/2up

soleil se lève pour les îles Eternelles, situées dans l'océan Occidental, quand il se couche à l'extrémité de la Chine, et qu'il se lève pour cette partie reculée delà terre quand il se couche pour ces îles.
Si on l'évalue en milles employés pour la mesure du globe, on obtient un total de treize mille cinq cents miilles.

Voici la division des sept climats. Premier climat : le pays de Babel, le Khoraçan, el-Ahwaz, Moçoul et le Djebal; ce climat a pour signes du zodiaque le Bélier et le Sagittaire; pour planète, Jupiter. Second climat : le Sind, llnde et le Soudan; signe du zodiaque, le Capricorne; pour planète, Saturne. Troisième climat : la Mecque, Médine, le Yemen , le Taïf, le Hedjaz et les pays intermédiaires; signe du zodiaque, le Scorpion; planète, Vénus l'heureuse. Quatrième

https://archive.org/details/lesprairies ... 2/mode/2up

climat: l'Egypte, l'Ifrikyah, le pays des Berbers, l'Espagne et les provinces comprises dans ces limites; signe du zodiaque, les Gémeaux; planète, Mercure. Cinquième climat : la Syrie, le pays de Roum, la Mésopotamie (el-Djezireh); signe du zodiaque, le Verseau; planète, la Lune. Sixième climat : les pays habités par les Turcs, les Khazars, les Deilemiens et les Slaves; signe du zodiaque, le Cancer; planète, Mars. Septième climat : le pays de Daïl et la Chine; signe du zodiaque, la Balance; planète, le SoleilT

Et voila une carte Masudi, est-ce que vous voyez les meridiannes et les paralelles? et l'equator?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _World.JPG?
uselang=ru

La partie de cette sphère qui va du nord au sud est nommée latitude, celle qui se dirige de l'ouest à l'est, longitude

[cjbaiget]

Et s'ils calculaient les heures par soleil, donc comment avaient-ils calcule une heure (pendant la nuit) avant le soleil?

You seem to lack the most basic notions of astronomy, which is the nature of the explanations I'm demanding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkhet. Please let someone with deeper knowledge in this subject provide the neccesary justifications, if those are possible. Extensive analysis of planet-star coverings and solar eclipses in the almagest are made in Chron3-Chapter10. A similar assessment (if possible) is urgently required for the same information in the Hakimi Tables:

"Let us remind the reader of the exact nature of the problem at hand. The most important fact is that the complete superimposition of stellar and planetary coordinates on the celestial sphere implies the prox­imity range of less than one minute. Even in the XVIII century, no reverse theoretical calculation of such an event could have been made."

Fomenko, Kalashnikov, Nosovsky, "History, Fiction or Science" Chron3, page 231.

[Воля]

I am not a specialist in astronomy, but I read Ptolemey's works and understood that the method of calculations described by 'Ptolemey" could not be realised without ...
a chronometer

that was explained, confirmed and prooved by many participants at this forum too.

A chronometer (Ancient Greek: χρονόμετρον, khronómetron, "time measurer") is an extraordinarily accurate mechanical timepiece, with an original focus on the needs of maritime navigation.

The term chronometer was coined by Jeremy Thacker of Beverley, England in 1714, referring to his invention of a clock ensconced in a vacuum chamber. The term chronometer is also used to describe a marine chronometer used for celestial navigation and determination of longitude. The marine chronometer was invented by John Harrison in 1730. This was the first of a series of chronometers that enabled accurate marine navigation.

The problem of ancients texts and authors is that translators and publisher of Midle Ages and of the New Age have not respected ancient original texts and ancients authors and have changed original texts have added the facts and knowledges of their modern times.

For example, Ptolemey and Masudi have not known "meridionals and paralells" but we find out them in their new moderns publications.

And this Map and other published
A printed map from the 15th century depicting Ptolemy's description of the Ecumene by Johannes Schnitzer (1482).

File:Claudius Ptolemy- The World.jpg

The world map from Leinhart Holle's 1482 edition of Nicolaus Germanus's emendations to Jacobus Angelus's 1406 Latin translation of Maximus Planudes's late-13th century rediscovered Greek manuscripts of Ptolemy's 2nd-century Geography.

was not a Map drawn by Ptolemey in 2 century, but this a work of 15 century!

and this map also
Ptolemy's 150 CE World Map redrawn in the 15th cent
A mid-15th century Florentine map of the world based on Jacobus Angelus's 1406 Latin translation of Maximus Planudes's late-13th century rediscovered Greek manuscripts of Ptolemy's 2nd-century Geography. Ptolemy's 1st (modified conic) projection.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/%CE% ... rldMap.jpg

Ptolemey could not know Canary islands (Fortunatae Insulae) and put there O Meridian.

Masudi could not calculate the distances in pharasangs (Perses) and in milles (Europens) in the same work.

et c.t.r et c.t.r

[cjbaiget]

It seems that a plausible explanation for the record of a planet convering of a star with the precise calendar date and hour, a phenomenon that the same Fomenko can be quoted to say that it cannot come from a reverse theoretical calculation, and happened in NC 'prehistory' cannot be find anywhere. Not even here.

Qui tacet, consentire videtur

[Воля]

I started to read Ibn-Yunus and have few remarks to do

The manuscript was dated by 15 century by the translator.

[cjbaiget]

Thanks Воля for your remarks.

But, since when is NC built on the dating of the manuscripts? I'll tell you: since NEVER.

Astronomical dating of the information contained therein is what builds NC.

The most urgent explanation now is not even the venus-regulus covering of 851.

NC has to ACCEPT that SCIENTIFIC ACTIVITIES where taking place 2000 years ago. As revealed by the CORRECT sescc dating of the Almagest. You just have to check it.

Almagest provides TWO INDEPENDENT PROOFS, as LATITUDES belong to Hipparchus and LONGITUDES belong to Ptolemy. In 2 b.C and 2 a.C respectively.

I'M ASKING FOR HELP ON THIS URGENT ENDEAVOUR: PLEASE SCIENTIFICALLY PROVE SESCC DATING WRONG.

Fomenko has to talk, and so has Nosovsky, about this and about the 1151 cycle and secondary cycles I discovered.

History was not an 'unfolded' replica of chronicles, they inadvertently 'folded' it, not being aware in the 80s that those cycles were real and existed. Everything is explained at my site. That's why they don't reply anymore, they are AWARE.

New Chronology has stalled, is VERY WRONG chronology.

Everything has to be made again. I'm very sorry, but we are scientists, we can't hide.

[Воля]

Almagest provides TWO INDEPENDENT PROOFS, as LATITUDES belong to Hipparchus and LONGITUDES belong to Ptolemy.

Ptolemey Almagest had "a longitude maximum of the day" and had no geographical longitude!

[Воля]

As to your idea of "very high precision of observation and calculations@ in Middle Age and in this book:

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k ... z/f43.item

a la page 40
Ils ont trouve ... (le soleil)... son mouvment dans l'anne persane 349 45' 44'' 14''' 24'''

J'ai quelques questions a propos de cette info:

1. Si j'ai bien compris, il y a les textes paralelles "arabe" et francais dans ce livre, faites-moi voir ou il y a des chiffres arabes avec les symboles arabes des grades, minutes, seconds, microseconds et c.t.r. a la page arabes (precedente 39 ou postirieure 41)?

2. Si vous le croyez, expliquez-moi svp comment les arabes et les perses ont ecrit ces portions des seconds"? quels symbols ont-ils utilise dans leur ecritures?

3. Quels type d'instruments, de disposotifs, de chronometres utlisaients les perses-arabes aux Moyen Age pour observer, mesurer et fixer le mouvemnet du soleil dans l'annee persane ... 46'' 33''' 50'''' 43'''''?

[Воля]

Perisan page in wikipedia translated into Russia

اسطرلاب

астролябия
C IX по XIX век в Иране и других странах исламского мира было построено множество астролябий. Говорят, что первым изготовителем астролябий среди мусульман был Мухаммад Фазари, сын Ибрагима Фазари . Но данные показывают, что первая астролябия была изготовлена ​​Абу Исхаком Ибрагимом бин Хабибом бин Сулейманом, известным как Ибрагим бин Хабиб, одним из иранских астрономов и астрономов, построившим астролябию в 777 году хиджры. Исфахане Она была построена . Но, судя по всему, самый древний известный образец, на котором выгравировано имя создателя и дата постройки, — это астролябия, изготовленная рукой « басталов » в 315 году хиджры, согласно куфической надписи на спинке ее сиденья.


Ширина стены делится на 360.

پرونده:Astrolabe-Persian-18C.jpg

پرونده:Iranian Astrolabe 14.jpg

Astrolabe is a tool in observational astronomy and now it is mostly used for educational applications. A common astrolabe is a circular metal device and plate that is made of bronze or brass or iron and steel or board in a very precise and delicate and strong way and is used for studies and calculations of astronomical works such as finding the height and angle of the sun, location The stars and planets and the alboruj region and obtaining the longitude and latitude of the place are used throughout the day and night and in different seasons of the year. It is also used to obtain the height of mountains and the width of rivers and other natural features of the earth and to determine the sunrise and sunset times of each fixed star and planets whose names are imprinted on the astrolabe network. Also, this device was made to calculate the sunrise and sunset times of each place (especially during the Islamic era, when the determination of prayer times was also added to it). Due to the fact that there is no need to use and know mathematical formulas when using the mentioned device. (like a calculation ruler used by engineers)

In general , this instrument was used to measure the height , direction , direction and inclination of the sun and stars , to determine the time of day and night , Qibla , and the time of sunrise and sunset


It is said that the first astrolabe maker among Muslims was Muhammad Fazari, the son of Ibrahim Fazari . But the evidence shows that the first astrolabe was made by Abu Ishaq Ibrahim bin Habib bin Sulaiman, known as Ibrahim bin Habib, one of the Iranian astronomers and astronomers, who built the astrolabe in 777 AH.

The width of the wall is divided into 360.

[cjbaiget]

It seems to me, that the core of the problem is going to be BURIED by non-relevant remarks about ancient persians, the age of the instruments, the shape of the symbols.

It seems that a PANTOMIME needs to be staged, where it's ME !!! who has the answer questions BEFORE being conceded EVEN the acknowledgement of THE QUESTION I MADE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Which I repeat here:

How does NC explain WE HAVING an ACCURATE description of planet-star covering in 851???

Something ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE according to ANATOLY TIMOFEVICH FOMENKO:

Let us remind the reader of the exact nature of the problem at hand. The most important fact is that the complete superimposition of stellar and planetary coordinates on the celestial sphere implies the prox­imity range of less than one minute. Even in the XVIII century, no reverse theoretical calculation of such an event could have been made."

Fomenko, Kalashnikov, Nosovsky, "History, Fiction or Science" Chron3, page 231.

And only THEN, an scientific assessment of ALL THE SOLAR ECLIPSES needs to be made, the same Fomenko said where not even possible to calculate in the 17 century.

It seems that once again, NC WINS, by EXPELLING anyone asking RATIONAL QUESTIONS.

Yours sincerely,
Carlos J. Baiget